Plate polishing

[CasedImage]

I have posted images of buffing paddles in the “plate polishing” in the galleries section of the site to go with Irving’s suggestion for polishing cloths;

“Daguerreians might find Ultrasuede better than deerskin, chamois and velvet for a polishing “cloth”. It can be used on the foam polishing pad of a random orbital sander or on a buffing stick. Unlike deerskin and chamois it is free of embedded grit because it is a synthetic non-woven material. It is better than velvet because it polishes faster and gives a superior silver surface.

Google reveals many suppliers of Ultrasuede. It comes in many colors and more than one thickness.

One such supplier is:

http://www.fieldsfabrics.com/ultra/

Best regards

Irv”

www.CasedImage.com

[photolytic]

Nice suggestion Irv.

Does it make any difference what color or thickness of ultrasuede you use?

The adds says “color migration may occur if dark-colored is combined with light-colored fabric”

What is meant by it “polishes faster” than velvet.

Is it more abrasive or does it just hold more polishing agent (i.e. dirt) as the add suggests?

Do you use it with alumina or rouge?

How about random orbital polishing speed.

As a man made fiber (80% Polyester 20% Polyamide) is it prone to melting at high polishing speeds or plate temperatures?

Many thanks for posting this recommendation Irv.

John

[Pobboravsky]

John, thanks for your kind thoughts and your questions. The 80% Polyester, 20% Polyamide material you mention is not Ultrasuede but a microfiber cleaning cloth.

Ultrasuede is 100% polyester ultra-microfiber non-woven with a non-fibrous polyurethane binder. Ultrasuede feels like chamois; in fact I bought “chamois” color so it even looks like chamois.

I’ve only used the thinner variety of one color so I cannot comment beyond that.

Polishing speed: I polish at the lowest speed which is speed 1 on my Bosch random orbital sander. I haven’t quantitatively compared the relative polishing rates of silk velvet and Ultrasuede but it seems to me that Ultrasuede polishes in a shorter period of time. Why? My guess is that Ultrasuede has the greater contact area (more abrasive per unit area). The contact area of velvet is less because it is made up of discrete fibers sticking up at right angles to the surface. I would guess that the rate of real chamois and Ultrasuede are the same because they have similar surfaces. This is conjecture on my part.

I use very minute dustings of chrome oxide powder (so-called green rouge) followed by lampblack on separate Ultrasuede-covered foam pads on my r.o. sander. I use 0.1 micron alumina powder on a silk-velvet covered foam pad with a drop or two of olive oil prior to the chrome oxide and lampblack.

Best regards,

Irv

[Andy Stockton]

Irv-

This kind of information is so very helpful to beginners like myself, thank you. I was wondering if you would use the same polishing methods to prepare copper prior to electroplating? Also would you comment on the amount of time you use for the various steps?

Here is my expanded interpretation of the process you have described. Is this anywhere near reality or have I made incorrect assumptions?

Step1

Polish-0.1 Mic Alumina

Applicator-Silk Velvet on foam

Method-2 drops olive oil/ROS “Speed 1″/Rinse with dish soap & water/Rinse with distilled water

Step2

Polish-Chrome oxide aka “Green Rouge”

Applicator-Ultrasuede on foam

Method-Dry “minute dusting”/ROS “Speed 1″/Rinse with distilled water

Step3

Polish-Lampblack

Applicator-Ultrasuede on foam

Method-Dry “minute dusting”/ROS “Speed 1″/Rinse with distilled water/Dry with hot air gun

Thanks again

[photolytic]

A good polishing procedure Andy but I would make one suggestion.

Washing the plate with soap and water after the use of olive oil is good but I would avoid any application of water after polishing with rouge or lampblack. After step 2 any traces of residual polish will be removed by the next polishing pad.

Blow drying water from the plates, even with air filters over the in air intake of the dryer, often leaves minute “water marks” due to the presence of dust or polishing agent particles in the air.

After step 3 a brief final dusting or polishing with a series of “clean” polish applicators leaves the surface free of lampblack and dust. Just prior to fuming the plate, any remaining dust or polishing pad fibers can be blown from the surface of the plate using bursts of air from a large rubber syringe bulb. The use of “canned air” is not advised as traces of propellant and water vapor are often left on the plate

John

[Pobboravsky]

Hi Andy,

John is right – do not wash plate after the rouge, chrome oxide or lampblack polishing steps. After the last polishing step (lampblack) I suggest using a small handbuff (3-M sanding block covered with Ultrasuede) to remove any abrasive particles adhering to the plate surface. It takes less than a half minute.

The above abrasives are not appropriate for polishing copper. When I have time I will outline how I do that.

Silver polishing can take anywhere from 2 to 5 minutes per step depending on the surface quality of a given plate.

Good luck,

Irv

[Andy Stockton]

Thanks to both of you for the clarifications. I will look forward to your information on copper in a future post.

I did have one question (well, I have hundreds of questions but I will limit myself to one )

If you don’t rinse between the rouge/chrome oxide/lampblack steps, do you use anything (air-dust, disposable wipe, other?) between the steps to keep the prior/coarser polishing agent from contaminating the next buff? Perhaps that is what you were referring to in your clarifying post John? Or is that only needed at the end?

[photolytic]

If you are using a series of polishing agents of different sizes with a polishing fluid like the olive oil IRC uses, then you would wipe the surface of the plate and the surface of the polishing table (usually a sheet of plate glass) between polishes to remove any polishing skum and minimize cross contamination.

However, during the subsequent dry polishing steps you are using only a sprinkle of polishing agent on the plate and this is almost entirely taken up by the pad during polishing leaving only a trace of polishing agent on the plate. Also all the subsequent polishing agents are nearly the grit same size, differing mainly in hardness. Hence there is no need to remove them before going on the next polishing step.

After the final polishing step it is desirable to remove all traces of polishing agents from the plate as these particles will cause holes in the coating and black spots in the Daguerreotype image.

[Race]

Where do you get foam polishing pads for the Bosch model sander? Is there a way to secure 3-M polishing papers to the sander?

Thanks,

Race

[Andy Stockton]

Hi Race-

I got mine from an outfit called Plumber’s Surplus [Link to the product page], but if you search “Bosch RS013” on Google you will find various sources. It is a “Sponge Applicator Pad” They also make an RS014 “Buffing Pad”, but I don’t know what the difference is. The RS013 is fairly firm.

Re the 3-M polishing papers, I have never found round hook-and-loop versions, so I just sprayed some photo mounting adhesive on a cheap 5″ hook-and-loop piece of fine grit sandpaper and used that. It worked ok but is kind of a fuss to make. You also only can cut two round pieces out of each sheet with a lot of waste left over. I would be happy to find a better solution.

[Pobboravsky]

Hi Race and Andy

Plumber’s Supply is new to me. Their price for a “Sponge Applicator Pad is nearly half of what I just paid at another source. Thanks Andy.

3-M polishing papers:

For more information on 3M™ Wetordry™ Polishing Paper

contact your local 3M Distributor or call 3M at 1-800-742-9546.

http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs666Ho5COrrrrQ

I use 3M Spray Mount Artist’s Adhesive, No 6065 to adhere a 5x5inch square of the 3M Polishing Paper to a Bosch Sponge Applicator Pad RS013. The back of the 3M pol’g paper is sprayed with No.6065 Adhesive and the paper is attached to the sponge pad. Overhanging pol’g paper is trimmed off with a scissors. The No. 6065 Adhesive allows repositioning so that when the a 3M pol’g paper is worn out, it can be easily peeled off the sponge pad and replaced with a fresh pol’g paper.

5″ diameter “Pressure sensitive” 3M Pol’g paper would be a better solution if a source could be found. The 3M website (above) shows photos of pol’g paper discs.

[Pobboravsky]

The 3M web site doesn’t work.

If at first you don’t succeed…

3M Polishing Paper Link

I hope this one works. If it doesn’t,search Google using search phrase: 3M micron polishing paper and click on the 3M website.

Irv

[Andy Stockton]

Using the product numbers Irv provided I was able to come up with this supplier:

286Q – 3M Wetordry Polishing Paper Discs 1, 2, 3 and 9 micron grades 5″ Hook & Loop

486Q – 3M Wetordry Polishing Paper Discs 15 and 30 micron grades 5″ Hook & Loop

They also have this item which I have not seen before:

3M 968M – 3M Hookit II Polishing Film 968M Discs — Comprised of resilient fibers coated onto a polyester film backing, this non-abrasive disc is usually used as a carrier for a polishing compound. For use in plastic repair and solid surface finishing.

In PSA they seem to have 3 and 9 micron

I couldn’t find the other micron grades in PSA before I ran out of time this morning. This is the link to all their 3M PSA polishing and lapping discs however.

I will also mention that when you bring up a product on the site it appears to show a minimum order of 100 units. I did test however and the system will accept a lesser quantity. I have not made an actual order yet.

[Andy Stockton]

p.s. I did call the company and the quantities that come up are minimum orders as these items are evidently made up on a custom basis from bulk materials.

[Pobboravsky]

Hi,

Methinks 3M is missing out by not having a Daguerreian Division. It really takes patience and persistence to crack their barriers; kudos and admiration go out to you Andy.

Using remnants of 3M polishing papers: I have found that two pieces (3.5 x 5 in.) of the remnants can be adhered to the Bosch foam disc and the overhang scissored off. This means you can get three 5-inch diameter discs from a 8.5 x ll inch sheet instead of just two. Works out fine.

Irv

[Jon Lewis]

I have some more inquiries on the random orbital front. In looking at various sanders I ran across the Ridgid 6″ variable speed random orbital sander. Here are it’s specs as well as the specs of the already discussed Bosch 5″.

Ridgid 6″ (R2611)

http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/6-Random-Orbit-Sander/EN/index.htm

Diameter: 6″

Speed: 4,000 – 10,000 OPM

Orbital Diameter: 1/4″ and 1/8″

Bosch 5″ (3725DEVS)

http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=3725DEVS

Diameter: 5″

Speed: 4,500 – 12,000 OPM

Orbital Diameter: 3/16″

The Ridgid is a bit bigger, slower, and has a smaller orbital diameter. On the surface it seems like it would be finer than the Bosch. Am I missing something or is this a sander that deserves further daguerreian consideration?

[Andy Stockton]

Thanks Irv. I’m glad I didn’t throw away the polishing paper remnants, using them that way didn’t occur to me.

Here is a roundup of the PSA & Hook-n-Loop micron polishing disks I found on Hillas. There was some catalog copy that seemed to indicate they had additional micron size choices, but I couldn’t find them all. The minimum order quantities are somewhat large in some of the sizes.

I’m also still wondering what methods people are using to polish copper? Do you use these papers or are there other methods that are better? I also find that I have a hard time figuring out how often to change disks. The cutting/polishing action tapers off so slowly with use.

PSA

3 mic – 5″ PSA $0.62×500=$310.00

9 mic – 5″ PSA $0.62×500=$310.00

15 mic – 5″ PSA $0.62×500=$310.00

30 mic – 5″ PSA $0.62×500=$310.00

Hookit II – Hook and Loop

1 mic – 5″ Hookit II $0.71×500=$355.00

3 mic – 5″ Hookit II $0.71×100=$71.00

9 mic – 5″ Hookit II $0.71×100=$71.00

15 mic – 5″ Hookit II $0.71×100=$71.00

30 mic – 5″ Hookit II $0.71×100=$71.00

And Jon – The Ridgid specs are certainly interesting, how do the prices compare?

[Jon Lewis]

Andy,

The Ridgid is about $130 and the Bosch seems to be about $180. I suppose that’s why I was thinking I was missing something…

[Race]

Hi, I’ve been getting weird swirls on my silver using the Bosch Random Orbital Sander. I’m using 9, 15,and 30 micron polishing paper on foam applicator pads. Is anyone else getting swirls?

[drdag]

I am not familiar with the micron grades, but from my car painting/polishing days it looks

like some contamination is in there either in the foam or the paper. Trouble is that 1 bit of grit goes a long way, is it wet and dry? if so is it absolutely flooded with water?

[photolytic]

Race,

Polishing copper with 6-30 micron paper is OK, but too agressive for silver.

Switch back to 1-3 micron green chome oxide, rouge and lampblack and those swirls should go away.

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[phuphuphnik]

When I first get the copper I start with scotchbrite and 25% nitric acid. I use down to the 00 steel wool equivalent scotchbrite. From there I use rottenstone and acid, then green rouge, and red on a ROS or wheel depending on my mood. After this I use Rottenstone then red rouge and buffs. Then a final wipe with the acid to prep for plating. After plating a buff then over the iodine.

[photolytic]

Your website says you bond silver (foil) to the copper plate with solder (acid core?). Above you have said the silver is plated. This is a unique method but it seems to contradict what you have stated above. Is the final acid rinse necessary to provide a proper bonding or flux for the soldering process?

[Pobboravsky]

I have been thinking about Andy’s question of how to tell when to change to a fresh abrasive paper on a random orbital sander. When you begin to wonder if it is time to change the paper shift the r.o.s. so it is only polishing half of the plate for a given period of time, say 2 or 3 minutes. Then compare the two halves to see if the extra polishing made any difference.

Adding a few drops of water to the plate when polishing with 3M wet-n-dry polishing papers increases the polishing rate.

Irv

[phuphuphnik]

Ah! To respond to photolytic:

The page is in the process of being updated. I’m afraid I’m not too good at making interesting web pages, so a friend is revamping it…I digress. For the small 2×2 images I solder silver to brass. I’m working on doing 4×5 now as well, and it is on those that I use the acid. Sorry for the confusion. I still use the smaller ones, as the prep is a lot faster. They fit right into my Rollei. They are really good for beginners I feel because you can polish them so often without wearing through the silver. Plus they will fit into a garage sale 620 camera, making it even easier for the beginner with no equipment.

Cheers!

[Author]

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