new commer has questions

[newone2010]

Hi everyone in dag forum:

I ma a new guy who make dags.I tried many times in Mercury temprature and time,but I can not make sure how long is correct.Short time,no image comes out(under a red lamp),longer time,it looks has some fogs on the image and it can not be wash away by sodium thiosulfate.

As I never saw a dag in fat except on websites,I don’t know how obvious a dag look like.Is a dag just has a thin image and needs to be look at in special angle of lights? I thought the image would be clear but not more clear than normal photos.

All the dags which I made just had thin images,and it would be better after gilding.

What I thought about the image above:

The image is not clear enough,

too much gilding

too much mercury time(65-70 Celsius degree 5minutes?

the fix solution is 18 gram sodium thiosulfate in 500ml water?I fixed it for more than 15 minutes and the fog was still there.I don’t know the fog was the left AgBr and AgI?or mercury left on the surface.

What do you think? hope you give me answers.

Thank you very much

[newone2010]

I will stay here for waiting answers.

[greg7mdp]

Hi newone,

Your picture doesn’t look very much like a dag. I think you need to know what a dag looks like, so you know when you are on the correct path. I would suggest you buy a cheap dag on ebay for $20 to $40, it should give you a good idea.

I think your fixing solution is pretty strong, and should dissolve the undeveloped silver halides in less than one minute. The fog is probably caused by your process (maybe too long mercury development). I normally use 3 minutes at 80 celsius, but the time will depend on the mercury pot.

It almost looks to me that the silver layer is peeling off the plate. That has happened to me when I was gilding for too long. The look of your image definitely makes me think of over-gilding. Do the spots appear when gilding?

greg

[newone2010]

:-)Hi Greg,

I tried another one just one minutes ago.

Mercury 65-70 celsius 3 minutes.No image came out!

So I think the mercury was not too long but too short!the “fog” which I thought was always turned out in white areas first.Is it the high light areas which come out first? Will it form the whole white areas but not white small white spots if I make the dags stay above mercury longer?

When the mercury done,can I see visible image just by red lamp?or it will be visible after fixing?

look forward to hear from you. (Or we can talk it in MSN)

Thank you very much!

[newone2010]

PS:When gilding,I used a pan and induction cooker.I think the temperature of the solution was 70 celsius. small air bubbles came out on the plate’s surface and disappeared when I took the plate out of the solution.

[greg7mdp]

Hi,

In my experience, I think the best time of the mercury is as long as possible, but not long enough so that mercury frosting occurs in the shadows. So that means that, as long as you don’t get a lot of tiny white spots in the dark areas of the plate, you can leave longer in the mercury. So it is quite possible that you need to leave longer in Hg. When I take the plate out I do see a clear image under the red light, which becomes clearer when fixing.

Don’t get discouraged. When I started it took me a long time to get barely visible images. You are on the right path. You really need to get a dag to see what they look like, I think you have wrong expectations.

[newone2010]

Hi Greg,

How do you clean the left rouge and polishing paste on the plates after polishing?

[greg7mdp]

I wipe the plate very thoroughly with cotton and denatured alcohol. If you look at other postings on this web site, you’ll see that other dag practitioners use different techniques. In particular Mike Robinson posted a very detailed description of his polishing technique.

greg

[newone2010]

Hi Greg and others,

I tried another one last night,as you said,I let the plate staying above Hg longer and it was far better than the one above before gilding,then I was confuse with the final step “gilding”.

This is how I done:

make the solution,

take the plates out of the pure water,and put it into a stainless steal pan,

pour the solution into the pan and cover the whole plate,

heat the pan with a induction cooker and remain the solution’s temprarure on near boil and steam form,

the plate begin to turn to slight yellow,then deeper yellow,some white “wave form” on the surface of the solution. I keep heating,some part of the plate turn to blue color and the plate turn darker.Keep heating again,some “dust” from as little scale deposits in the solution,and the plate turn back to B/W without yellow color,and more more darker than un-gilding.The “dust” didn’t disapear after keeping heating.(this is the step confusing me)

After that,I wash the plate using distilled water and a blow dryer for drying the plate.

The plate is more more darker after gilding but clear and no stains left,just looks like under-exposure few steps,though it was nice as had a correct exposure before gilding.

Was there something wrong in my “gilding”?Too long,too strong? As no others mentioned the “dust” forming,whether the “dust” is the “stains”?

I do not hope finally I will get dark plates although the images are clear.

all the best,

Waiting for your reply.

[newone2010]

this is the dag

[newone2010]

I use a cheap scaner to digital it.

As I said,it is more darker after gilding.

the background was a piece of black cloth.

PS: I know too much rouge and marks left on the plate after polishing.That can be correct later.

[newone2010]

there are two dags I made today.

Bad polishing,bad silver coating!After polishing,the brass looked like to come out of the thin sliver.

I can not clean the rest rouge on the plates too.

As Greg said,I use industrial alcohol to clean it with small medical cotton balls before Br and I,but after that no image came out!

I use two deer skin. One with rouge for the first polishing.One without rouge for second polishing,but the second polishing without rouge left some scratchs.

Do someone can tell me how to clean the rouge “detailedly”?

[jgmotamedi]

I would not use deerskin. I have had no end of trouble trying to polish with it.

[newone2010]

Thank you so much?I followed you to your web pages,and know you did not use deerskin but velvet.I will buy pieces of velvet and try later.

I still have some problem in silver electroplate too. I will make some new plates several days later.

[jgmotamedi]

Although it is hard to tell, it looks like you are over-gilding, or at least on the first plate. There are too many variables to tell what is going on. Can I suggest that you make a few plates without gilding?

[newone2010]

Okay,I will try 2 or 3 plates without gilding in next 3 days.My mercury pot is too big,so I must take longer time for Hg.The two plates above: 16 minutes at 70c.I think I also can let the Hg time to be longer.The image above is a little faint before gilding.As I said to Greg,I have not seen a real dag but on webpages,I do not really understand what a dag look like. Greg kindly suggest me to buy a cheap dag from Ebay,but I am in China,I can not buy sth. from ebay.All I can do is just that I make my own dag,and let the members of dag fourm to criticize.

My English is not good. If I had some improper words,hope you do not mind.

PS: Can I ask your MSN account?Mine is mengart@live.cn

Thank you so much!

[newone2010]

there are small white spots left on the plates.

Cause by the rest rouge?over mercury time?

who can tell me?

The plates had lots of scratches,and the washing water left some water marks on the plates.

I scaned the plates by a cheap scaner and the color was more yellow than it was.

As jgmotamedi said,I will upload some pics without gilding later.

Thank you so much for your help.

[newone2010]

Before gilding

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

after gilding

I took these two pics by my Canon 5D markII.

one under 3200K light,another under sky light.

What do you think about these two pics?Thanks a lot!

[greg7mdp]

The small white spots are mercury frosting, caused by too long a time in the mercury box. Look at the plate before developing and these spots should not be there.

When rinsing the plate with water, make sure to use distilled water. After gilding I rinse with alcohol.

I think you are on the right track… keep trying.

greg

[newone2010]

Thank you,Greg

The small white spots just look like frost( or dusty)on the plate.I tried another one yesterday,longer time than above,and there are 3 white shiny silvery spots.I think the shiny silvery spots was caused by too long mercury time. Is the white dust(or frost) caused by the rest Chemical Substances?

You mentioned you use alcohol to rinse after gilding.I can’t obtain 100% alcohol because of that it can be used for illegal production.I can get 95% alcohol from hospitals.Can I use that?

Li Junyi

[greg7mdp]

Li, the small white spots are because you left the plate too long in the mercury. I’m pretty sure of that. The shiny silvery spots maybe have the same cause, but I don’t know for sure as I have seen them very seldom?

95% alcohol for rinsing is fine. Even 65% alcohol would be fine. And use a blow drier (normally used for hair), starting at a corner of the plate, to gently push/evaporate the alcohol or water.

greg

[newone2010]

Hi Greg,

Thank you so much!I will upload the dag which I made yesterday 10 minutes later and back to you.Are you still here?

[newone2010]

this is the one I made yesterday

the plate was not been polished well.The left side and the bottom of the plates has Unqualified folding.

Gilding too much.

So I think about change the mixture of gilding solution.

I used 4g sodium thiosulfate in 500ml water and 1g gold chloride in 500ml water.Mix them 1:1.

I did not use gilding-stands but a small pan,so the solution is much more than traditional gilding stands.I think that is why my plate was over-gilding.

I decide to mix sodium thiosulfate solution and gold chloride solution 4:1 next time,I will tell you how it will work.

PS: I do not know why we must need thoulfate solution in gilding? How does it work? What’s the function of it?

Li Junyi

[greg7mdp]

Is the back of your plate silvered too, or is the copper visible? If the copper is visible, it will be a problem when you gild by submerging the plate, as it forms a battery and the copper migrates to the silver side, darkening the edges. Maybe that’s what is happening to you. I made myself a gilding stand with copper piping.

Your first proportions are correct, with the 1:1 mix. If you want to reduce gilding just reduce heat and gild for a shorter time.

greg

[greg7mdp]

My gilding stand. Definitely not pretty but was cheap and it works.

 

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