Mercury vs Becquerel
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June 9, 2008 at 11:23 pm #7141Jon LewisMember
Of the practicing daguerreotypists in the forum, which of you use mercury development and which of you use the Becquerel process? To be honest, the only daguerreotypes I’ve seen in person (contemporary or vintage) have been mercury developed. What sort of visual differences are there between the two? What sort of technical and process differences are there beyond the obvious development technique?
June 10, 2008 at 2:36 am #7143drdagParticipantI mainly have been using Becquerel as I am happier with the safety aspect. I have a fume cupboard and aslo wear a mask when using the mercury, I have found it much more difficult using the bromine and mercury than using just the iodine.There are more variable to control. This however means that the images need to be of still subjects due to the longer exposure times.
June 10, 2008 at 2:50 am #7144The DaguerreotypistParticipantBecquerel is a verfy fine way to start with I think. Besides the safety aspect is much easier to practise because you don’t have to find the right chemicals bromine and mercury. I have to admit that the plates I have made are 99% developed with mercury. The problem in Europe, and I think it’s the same in the USA is to buy mercury and bromine. I have to make my own "dry bromine" out of a chemical reactie because it’s not possible in Europe to buy it of the shelf.
June 10, 2008 at 6:33 am #7145drdagParticipantIf you are persistent then these things can be obtained. You can also buy Bromine water off the shelf here (UK)
legally.I bought 10 phials of bromine from a ‘chemical’ guy on ebay. He was advertising n stuff and said he could get anything. The mercury is a bit harder, I got a lot of mine when I put an advert
on Freecycle and was given some old blood pressure sphygnometers. You do not need much to get going.June 10, 2008 at 2:07 pm #7150jdanforthParticipantI use Becquerel and though I’d love to try Mercury I’m in no rush.
June 10, 2008 at 3:49 pm #7152CasedImageKeymasterI used becq. for the last few years and got some very fine results, but late last year I had a engineer make a stainless steel pot and had it fitted with a sealed double darkslide arrangement. Then I had to construct a fume hood and obtain the extra chemicals. By the time it came to making the first few images It felt like I had started making dags all over again! See the galleries section for photo’s of my mercury pot, modeled on Mike Robinsons and a vintage one. I would still like to do becq. sometime but I like the short development time, I get much more shooting into a fine day.
www.CasedImage.com
June 10, 2008 at 4:07 pm #7154jdanforthParticipantCasedImage.com wrote:I get much more shooting into a fine day.Ha! I call those "Daguerreodays".
June 20, 2008 at 1:58 pm #7219Jon LewisMemberCan you use bromine (or even chlorine) for Becuerel? I’ve only seen reference to people using iodine but no specific statements that you can’t use anything else.
June 21, 2008 at 12:40 am #7220JG MotamediParticipantBromine doesn’t work with the Becquerel process; something about the increased range of sensitivity which Br2 provides does not function with Becquerel’s development process. Results are fogged beyond recognition. I have never tried any of the other halogens, but guess they would do the same thing.
jason
ps: I move back and forth between traditional and Becquerel development. Although the results are usually less pleasing to me, I find the "ease" and "safety" (note the scare quotes) of Becquerel to increase my enjoyment of the process. That said, as soon as my fumehood is once again up and running, I will be using mercury.
June 21, 2008 at 4:05 am #7221CasedImageKeymasterI’ve only been using the mercury process for a short while and while I had some disheartening disasters , there’s been good plates as well. Maybe its early days but I can’t imagine doing becquerel again as I need all the learning curve experience I can get with Mercury. Safety is a big concern, I am always checking the air flow meter in the fume hood entrance to make sure I have way more than is recommended. I am very cautious not to even get a whiff of the bromine or Iodine. Mercury is a worry – colorless, ordourless, absorbed through the skin, there’s genetic susceptibility to mercury poisoning and its cumulative that never goes away. Properly managed though it is just another hurdle in the long list of challenges in making the Daguerreotype.
www.CasedImage.com
June 21, 2008 at 7:25 am #7222jdanforthParticipantCasedImage.com wrote:I’ve only been using the mercury process for a short while and while I had some disheartening disasters , there’s been good plates as well. Maybe its early days but I can’t imagine doing becquerel again as I need all the learning curve experience I can get with Mercury. Safety is a big concern, I am always checking the air flow meter in the fume hood entrance to make sure I have way more than is recommended. I am very cautious not to even get a whiff of the bromine or Iodine. Mercury is a worry – colorless, ordourless, absorbed through the skin, there’s genetic susceptibility to mercury poisoning and its cumulative that never goes away. Properly managed though it is just another hurdle in the long list of challenges in making the Daguerreotype.Do you have pics of your fume hood setup? I’d like to see it. How much CFM do you use?
June 21, 2008 at 11:02 am #7223CasedImageKeymasterWell the thing with setting up a online community to promote discussion is that I guess I have to front up to questions. At the risk of horrifying practioners, here are some pics of my portable fume hood, at least it should generate discussion…
I am living in Ireland for 6 months and so had to build something temporary. The structure is made of lightweight pvc plastic pipe that holds top and bottom plates of black acrylic. The top plate has machine cut 100mm hole in the center for a pvc plumbing fitting of that size. Hanging down from the top plate is a thick polythene enclosure with the bottom plate inside it, giving a sealed space (apart from the front opening) with a flat sturdy floor. The whole thing sits in a window of a larger polythene tent/darkroom that hangs from a ceiling in the workshop space I am using. The pipes that make up the structure can be dismantled and so the whole thing can collapse flat, in theory.
It is big enough to have a fuming box or the mercury pot in it at one time with working space around the items. After development I don’t move the mercury pot till it has cooled right down even though it is a airtight condensing pot. I also wear rubber gloves for handling items inside the fume hood.
The fan unit is mounted in a window frame so there is only negative air pressure in the room and is connected by pvc ducting. It uses inert plastics, is airtight and when going has an airflow of 150 per min at the base when wide open and closer to 400 when the window is stoppered down a bit.
www.CasedImage.com
June 21, 2008 at 6:46 pm #7224Jon LewisMemberThanks for posting this, it gives me some ideas for a fume hood for my fuming box. It doesn’t need to be very big and if/when I progress to mercury I’ll construct/acquire a bigger one. What sort of fan to you use?
June 21, 2008 at 7:38 pm #7226CasedImageKeymasterHi Jon
I bought a inline fan designed for use with hydroponic cultivation. The ones you can buy for shower fans for bathrooms aren’t strong enough. Of course it all depends on the size of you fume hood/volume it has to work with. I got mine from the UK but there are lots of makes and models in the States. It doesn’t look very big in the photo but it is – have attached the stats with it. It was cheap – 20 pounds sterling.
There are probably better ones to be had so shop around. I need to dampen down this ones power as I use a alcohol lamp to heat my mercury pot and the flame gets pulled around a bit with the strong airflow.I have just realised that it has an aluminium casing… i may not keep it for the long term as Mercury and Aluminium don’t go well together – btw, bear this in mind when constructing a mercury pot! Mercury can disolve Aluminium, its why they don’t like it on planes.
Some stats on my In Line Duct Fan Hydroponics Extractor Fan –
100 Dia. spigots to suit standard ducting.
Up to 240 m3/h airflow rate.
73 Watts power consumption at full speed.
Will handle up to 350 Pa resistance, ideal for long duct runs.
Corrosion proof powder coated aluminium casing.
Long life ball bearing motor.
Thermally protected motor to prevent burn-out.
100% Speed controllable.
Sound level of 49 dB(A) @ 3m distance!!www.CasedImage.com
August 27, 2008 at 10:01 pm #7323Andy StocktonParticipantCasedImage.com — Thanks for all the details about your temporary fume hood!
I am starting my fume hood design this long weekend and am going to start buying some components – fan, air flow meter, safe lighting, etc. I am not ready to do mercury process yet, but I don’t particularly want to breathe in iodine fumes either.
I was wondering if any other experienced "hood" builders would share "the one or two things I wish I knew before I started". Tips, gotchas etc. I am also very interested in brands, vendors, specs, etc.
I also wonder if any of you mercury process folks have any tips so that my fume hood will be ready for the transition when the time comes? For instance – is anyone using activated charcoal filtering of the exhaust air to trap mercury?
Any and all responses, long or short, are highly appreciated.
August 28, 2008 at 6:14 am #7324drdagParticipantI use one of these that has a 20 or so square inch by 6 inch deep charcoal filter.
http://www.cleanairltd.co.uk/prod-ssr.php
It has wheels and is therefore moveable. It has a socket and a light. I keep all my goodies in it. I also wear a fine particle repirator when I am using mercury as a double safety measure. My hair has still alll fallen out tho’. Mind you it did that before i starting Dags!August 28, 2008 at 8:55 am #7325jdanforthParticipantdrdag wrote: My hair has still alll fallen out tho’. Mind you it did that before i starting Dags!When your teeth start to fall out it’s time to worry.
August 30, 2008 at 11:36 pm #7329Andy StocktonParticipantThat’s an amazing unit drdag. I imagine that set you back a bit of silver. How often do you change the filter? Is it something you use a test to decide – or just an arbitrary length of time?
August 31, 2008 at 3:04 am #7330RaceParticipantThought I you would show my set-up. The pot is made for half plates and sixth plates. I keep the mercury, bromine, and iodine inside the fume hood at all times (not shown in picture ). When I first began using bromine, the chemical company that sold it to me sent it in a regular glass bottle with a plastic cap! It should have been sealed with a special lead stopper! Anyway, their were burn bubbles forming on the plastic. I accidently cracked the glass which made it worse. The contents had to be poured into another plastic capped bottle, which started forming bubbles. That night I bought a PTFE 100ml bottle from a company in England (overnighter). It works very well! While I was pouring the bromine into the new bottle I accidently spilled some on my fingers (what a "daguerreotype recruit" thing to do). Let’s just say it burned like a muther @#!%&^$%! I stuck my whole hand in a big bowl of cold sodium thiosulphate for a good 5 minutes. Eliminated most of the pain and turned my burns bluish-grey. I took myself to emergency. "Everything will be alright" said the five foot two eyes of blue nurse, no amputations, no skin graphs, plus, the fine looking young lady (college medical student not much older than me) that was attending was also interested in old photographic practices! We talked for quite awhile. Anyway, that was about four months ago. Now that summer is over back to school I go (college). Another year of "no free time all study." I count myself very lucky if I’m able to make a few dags or pop off a few rounds at the shooting range once in a while. At least I get the whole month of December off! Daguerreotypemania here I come!!
The classy daggist,
-Race G. ” title=”Wink” />
August 31, 2008 at 8:05 am #7332Andy StocktonParticipantThanks for the pic Race, sounds like quite a chemical adventure you had. You definitely had double luck – what with no lasting injuries and an attractive nurse and med student to boot. You are most certainly lucky I wasn’t your nurse – no one has ever considered me pretty and I probably would have debrided your burns – ouch!
Looks like your setup is another vote for a commercially made fume hood (or you are a really skilled fabricator). Is that a recirculating filter on top or just the fan and duct shroud? I am working on plans for a homemade hood this weekend and I am trying to decide all the various aspects – fan size, cabinet materials, cabinet size, and also whether to filter my exhaust air. It is so great when people post pictures. ” title=”Very Happy” />
I was also wondering where you got your mecury apparatus. It too looks commercial grade. Is that a lid on top? Does the mercury stay inside or do you store it elsewhere? How often do you pull out the plate to look when you are developing? Do beginners ask too many questions?
Anyway, thanks for the informative post.
September 1, 2008 at 10:18 am #7333drdagParticipantMy mercury pot is similar, The pot at the bottom lifts out and I put the mercury away after use.
I also drilled a hole in the side and welded some fine steel tube in at an angle so that I can insert a digital probe thermometer into the actual mercury. I heat everything that needs heating with a hot air gun (like a paint stripping hairdryer thing} I can control the temp easily with this. I have had a small alcohol fire in the fume cupbaord.Never again!September 6, 2008 at 5:22 pm #7334CasedImageKeymasterWith Mercury Pot design, what are peoples thoughts on sealed versus open mercury pots? Because as individuals we operate under the radar of Health & Safety and Environmental regulatory bodies the onus is on us to develop standards that protect both ourselves and the environment. As a modern practice Daguerreotypy needs to be a respected name by such governance’s as the last thing we all need is to be perceived as environmental rogues that need to be legislated against.
A double darkslide arrangement (see attached image) provides airlock access to a lethal atmosphere. Contained within the mercury pot the danger will pass through the cooling down and condensing of the vapors, post plate development. A small amount of airspace around the plate itself is exchanged with the fumehood environment but this is a tiny fraction of what mercury vapors must escape from a heated open pot when the developed plate is removed. While judicious use of a good fume hood may protect you those vapors are still being released into the environment. Fans failing, backdrafts or power outages also present an unmanageable situation with a non sealed mercury pot.
The facility for measuring the temperature of the heated mercury is also important, over heated mercury means more being released into the atmosphere and will play havoc with your development also. thinking of mercury pot design I might also add to avoid Aluminium since mercury can dissolve it.
Reading various blogs, I get the feeling that there are many people heading towards mercurial development at the moment, some with the best features in mind (see attached image), so perhaps its an opportune time to remind everyone of our duty not only to ourselves but to the environment.
www.CasedImage.com
September 6, 2008 at 8:46 pm #7335Andy StocktonParticipantAs a public health nurse I fully support your concerns about maximum safety with mercury. Environmental health professionals are still uncovering problems with this element and the last thing daguerreotypists would need is to get caught in the glare of those headlights. One of the reasons I am taking so much time getting started is that I am reading and trying to make sure that the setup I use is as responsible/safe as possible and produces the absolute best art possible.
As a beginner I have two questions – 1) did you purchase the system in the photo or did you build it? 2) During mercury development is it necessary to examine the plate to determine when to stop, and if so how do you accomplish that with this apparatus? (Since a cooldown wouldn’t be possible if you have to "peek").
Thanks,
Andy
September 7, 2008 at 3:41 am #7336CasedImageKeymasterHey Andy
Q1.- I had a engineering workshop fabricate the basic pot based on vintage examples, out of stainless steel. The square base of the pot was a 1/2" square and the top matched my format with an extra inch on all sides. I provided them with a polder thermometer sensor so they made the cylinder insert just the right size. I then had a darkslide moded by replacing the velvet strips that light seal the darkslide with neoprene strips to make it airtight. The interior of the darkslide and the pot was sealed with black paint – easier to see mercury globules on the surface. The darkslides were replaced with stainless steel ones.
Q2. – Development can be a controlling factor in image formation and the double darkslide allows you to shut off the plate to the pot interior then open the outer darkslide to gain access to the plate. Done under the safelight of your castle darkroom you can then either put it back for more development or drop it into the fix.I’ve had a few enquiries about the mercury pot, but format needs vary and they are quite an investment to make, so I don’t think I would go to the effort of making them a standard casedimage.com product. Also I think that if desired folk will go through the same fabrication process that I did rather than buy them off the shelf.
Hope this helps
www.CasedImage.com
September 7, 2008 at 2:31 pm #7337RaceParticipantHi Andy,
My fume hood is the G-30 Containment hood, part of the G series by Airfiltronix -"Clean Air for Industry, Medicine and Research". It works great and is affordable! I use two filters, One iodine and mercury filter. 1: Mercury Filter, 2" Deep, 3 Per Box $865.00 & Radioactive Iodine Filter, 2" Deep, 3 Per Box $655.00. Here is their website, http://www.airfiltronix.com/containment-hoods.htm.The mercury pot was made by a fabricator Here in San Diego, California. Made from stainless steel. The mercury cup is threaded so that you can screw it off and safely store the element. I don’t use a thermometer probe, although I should. It’s all done by guess work (checked every 2 minutes). Surprisingly, I’ve been getting great results with no fogging.
Q: Do beginners ask to many questions?
A: No, especially in this type of art! When it comes to your health and safety, ask as many question as you want! Consult a chemist.-Race Gentry
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