Fuming Box Questions.

[TyG]

Ty Guillory here. I build cameras for wet plate and dag photography. I have been asked a few times about building fuming boxes. I have never done dag photography, so I am a bit at a loss for info. Of course, I have checked every available image. In no order, here are a couple questions or thoughts I have.

Does the spring under the dish work as well as the screw type? The pyrex dish actually is not perfectly flat, so there is no way it would perfectly seal. It tends to rise a little at the corners.

Does the “seal” need to be with the slide and the glass dish? Or, is it just pressure with the wood groove with the slide with the dish just sitting inside.

If you have the design using the springs under the dish; when you pull out the slide, does the dish rise to a point where the slide cannot be re-inserted without raising the lid just a bit?

I have gobs of images of various designs and am pretty adept at building period equipment. However, it is hard to design something just on theory without having one on hand.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ty

http://www.tyguillory.com

[TyG]

Ok, edit myself. I searched and did come across a post telling how to get the dish perfectly flat.

[Andy Stockton]

Hi Ty-

I hope you will get some discussion going here – particularly from those with a lot of experience. We need more people making daguerreotype equipment.

I will make a couple of observations from my relatively limited experience:

1) I am skeptical of any iodine fuming box design that makes use of much metal. Iodine attacks most metals and corrodes them beyond recognition pretty quickly. That’s why I suspect the boxes with springs under the glass dish won’t last very long. Perhaps someone with greater experience will speak to this – especially if there are metals that are more resistant to the corrosive effects of iodine. Stainless steel?

2) All the designs I have seen use a glass-glass seal and both sides are generally ground.

3) If you decide to make a “spring type” I think you would have trouble with the dish “popping up” if you open the slide too far, as you mention.

4) I have wondered if square glass vases would be a better choice than a pyrex baking dish for making fuming boxes. They come in a wide array of sizes and are deeper than the pans. Older fuming box designs look like they had more distance between the iodine and the plate. Some people have written that the iodine being too close to the plate can cause problems with uneven fuming or spotting of the plate.

Here are a couple of sources of square glass vases:

http://www.dfwvases.com/Cube_Glass_Vases-Cube_Glass_Vase_8_x_8_x_8_4_p_c.html

http://www.russwholesaleflowers.com/glass-vases

5) I have also wondered if plastic fuming boxes would work well. In chemical resistance tables acrylic is usable with iodine, and Type II PVC will supposedly work with Bromine. I am experimenting with both of these myself, but have not made the boxes yet. I may construct the entire boxes out of plastic, including plastic hinges. For those attracted to the aesthetics of wood, the inner box could be plastic with an outer box of wood. I like the idea of fabricating my inner box of plastic because then I can dimension it exactly as I like rather than having to adapt to a glass container of some arbitrary size.

6) Some say that the “strike-through” design (such as Eugene Galasso’s boxes) gives a more precise control of fuming, because the plate slides completely out and away from the fumes.

I hope these comments are helpful, and I hope others will chime in as well. It would be great if there were more fabricators at work.

[CasedImage]

I seem to remember that Mike Robinson’s fuming boxes use springs of some metal that does not corrode with iodine or bromine.

The two sets of fuming boxes I’ve owned that relied on the glass dish being pushed up against the minimal length cover glass slide leaked fumes. The tightening screw on the strikethrough does seem to do a much better job and the double length cover gives better ease of operation.

Fuming boxes of non corroding materials sound great, I don’t think when it comes to chemical storage, aesthetics of traditional boxes are a big concern.

In my iodine fuming box I distribute the crystals in layers of cotton wool so they don’t slide around in the dish and become concentrated in one area, also it helps distribute the fumes evenly to the plate.

Indeed having more makers of dag. equipment would great, its whats needed to have more people getting into practicing the art and that will elevate and expand what is a very small genre – a win win situation.

www.CasedImage.com

[jgmotamedi]

A few things I have learned;

First, none of the glass containers I have used have level beveled edges. To really seal the edges and prevent leaking these really need to be sanded down. I have tried a few ways of doing this and found the best way is using a oil-based grit (Clover) on a large sheet of glass. This takes a long time, but produces the best and most even results.

I have used both glass and Teflon/PTFE slides to seal the fumes and have found that Teflon/PTFE works better since it compresses while glass only breaks. However, it is not “period” and it can be difficult to glue onto a wood slide.

While the “strike-through” or American designs are authentic, they are not very convenient, as they take much more space to use. For those of us using small fumehoods this is an significant issue. I have also found that when NOT using adequate ventilation (bad bad bad, I know), the strike-through tend to produce more ambient fumes, as the iodine (I have never done this with bromine and am not about to try) sticks to the underside of the slide and escapes. Probably nothing significant, but it is noticeable.

Also, for what it is worth, I have built fuming boxes out of acrylic. I did this only because I had the material available and free of charge. Acrylic is not terribly resistant to bromine fumes, and did a poor job sealing, but they do look pretty cool!

In any case, I would love to see your results!

jason

[Andy Stockton]

Jason – I am curious – on your Acrylic fuming boxes did you use any kind of screwdown or spring or any other device to put pressure on the slides when the box was not in use – for a tighter seal?

Any pictures you care to share?

[jgmotamedi]

I drilled a hole in the cross beam and put in an expanding brass threaded insert. I then used a stainless steel thumb screw to tighten it down. The brass is still fine, and the thumb screw is rusty but still functional. Everything else was put together with acrylic solvent cement and one acrylic hinge. I will try to post some images later, maybe this weekend if I have time to take them.

[TyG]

Hey Jason, I had thought about shooting you an email when I started planning this thing. What is Teflon? Of course, I know of the stuff on my pots and pans; yet I am not familiar with anything like that in sheet form. What is it and what color is it?

Thanks so much all of you. I have a design I am going to go with and if I can figure out how, I will post images of my version when I’m done with it.

Ty

[Andy Stockton]

It is usually white and fairly expensive, but will stand up to both Iodine and Bromine. Here is a link to one supplier that actually quotes prices:

http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic?search=teflon

[TyG]

Gosh ALMIGHTY, that stuff by weight has got to be worth more than gold. Thanks for the link though Andy.

[Pobboravsky]

Avoiding the use of metal in sensitizer design

My sensi-boxes avoid using any springs by having a wood disk in the middle of the box floor. The disk is about 0.25 inch thick with a diameter of roughly 1-1/4 inch. The top edges of the disk are rounded. The Pyrex dish sits on this disk.

The cross bar has two wood screws instead of one. They are located near the outer parts of the cross bar. Think of the disk as the fulcrum of a teeter totter and the wood screws are where the kids sit at each end of the bar. The craftsman who built the boxes thought of the design in response to my request to avoid any exposed metal.

The boxes have worked well for nearly 40 years. Hard to believe I’m only 39.

Irv

[jgmotamedi]

Hello Ty,

Teflon is a brand of Fluoropolymer. What I have found is that there is no reason to buy the branded version. Virgin electronic grade PTFE works as well, and is significantly cheaper. McMaster-Carr sells a 12×12 1/16″ sheet for about $38. I am sure you could get it cheaper.

Please feel free to contact me.

jason

[jgmotamedi]

I just looked at the site that Andy posted, and the prices are quite good, and much cheaper than McMaster-Carr. You would only use 1/16″ (.06″) PTFE sheet on a wooden slide, so a 12×48″ sheet for $41 would make at least four whole-plate box boxes. Plate holders–at least those which don’t remain inside the box when not in use–can be made out of wood or acrylic.

[jgmotamedi]

A few images of my acrylic 5×7 double fuming box

You can see that I used PTFE as a slide here, placed between a heavy acrylic slide and the glass container.

Here you can see how I drilled through the crossbar and used a expanding threaded insert to hold the thumb screw, which put pressure on the slide.

Here you can see the results of using metal screws. The hinge broke off and since I didn’t have the solvent glue, I repaired it with steel screws. Not a good idea.

Sorry for the crappy cell phone pictures

[jgmotamedi]

Pictures of my 4×5 iodine-only traveling box using the strike-through American design

The large strike-through slide is in place. As you can see, it takes a lot of space.

I have a smaller lid to use when not in use. It just pulls out and swaps with the large slide.

Slide pulled out an upside down, exposing the 1/16″ PTFE liner, unfortunately the PTFE was attached to the wood with brass screws, these will have to be replaced someday.

[jgmotamedi]

My “daily use” (yeah, right) fuming boxes are loaded with iodine and bromine, but I will try to take a few images sometime soon.

[Pobboravsky]

Jason, I’ve seen crappy pictures but yours don’t even approach crappy. I know crappy from my own experience.

Irv

[TyG]

Great Images. Thanks so much for showing the breakdown of it.

[jgmotamedi]

Irv,

I have yet to see one of your crappy images, but thanks. My suppose I was just feeling guilty about using my cell phone’s camera rather than a “real” digital camera.

Ty,

My tendency has always been towards function over form, with a big kowtow to budget, so my boxes are not pretty, but they seem to function pretty well. I am not sure how others feel, but I would recommend a similar approach to you Ty: build a small (half plate?) functional box–well sealed and easy to use–out of cheaper materials such as plywood and glass for a lower price, and I think you will have greater reach, particularly to the newcomers who are just getting their feet wet. You can also offer a deluxe pair, made of nice wood and with PTFE, perhaps with a matching wood camera.

Now we just need someone to start making mercury pots…

[Krokodul]

Hi guys,

 

I am trying to build two “spring type” fuming boxes based on Mike Robinson’s design. Like Ty, I am also concerned with the dish popping up so far that it prevents the glass slide from being reinserted. Ty, did you find a way around this problem?

 

To those of you who are working with similar boxes, how do you put the slide back in without opening the box and pushing down on the dish? I was wondering if it would be better to cut the slot for the slide directly below the plate holder? In my current design the slot is inset by 3mm from the top edge. Maybe if I then beveled the edges of both the slide and the dish the slide could be pushed in again?

 

Here’s a mockup of what the box might look like. If anyone is interested in the CAD drawings please let me know!

 

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[Mike Robinson]

to prevent the dish from popping up too far, the coil springs have retainers or limits on them. Kind of like an automobile engine valve spring cap.

 

a bolt and nut down through the centre adjust to give the right tensions and hold the springs in place.

 

Mike Robinson

 

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[TyG]

Krokodul, sorry to take so long. Haven’t been playing on computer much lately. Too much work in the woodshop. Mike, the expert on the spring design has obviously chimed in. To answer the question, no I did not give it any more thought; as the guys who have had me build boxes were wanting a different design. I do like Mike’s boxes, and don’t want to step on any toes. I have two designs I go with, both screw down.

[Author]

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